Episode 1: How to Save the Whales (Like, Actually)
Episode Description: New tech is making waves in marine science. In this debut episode of Oceanography, we dive into the world of innovative fishing gear designed to protect endangered species—especially the North Atlantic right whale. Guest Megan Amico, a fisheries biologist with NOAA, shares how scientists and fishermen are working together to reduce harmful bycatch through smart design, including on-demand lobster traps and turtle excluder devices. It’s a story of unlikely partnerships, inventive problem-solving, and measurable success. If you care about marine life, sustainable fisheries, or just love a good science story, this is one you won’t want to miss. Learn how collaboration is helping coastal communities thrive while giving ocean wildlife a fighting chance.
Episode Guest: Megan Amico
Learn more about Megan Amico here
NOAA Protected Species Gear Research: Visit Here
NOAA’s Endangered Species List and Action Plans: Browse List
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Episode Transcript and more information on the Pine Forest Media website
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Hosted, produced, and edited by Clark Marchese
Cover art by Jomiro Eming
Theme music by Nela Ruiz
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Transcript
Clark Marchese (00:11.64)
Hello, and thank you so much for joining us here on Oceanography. This is the podcast that dives deep, sorry, couldn't help it, into the science of our oceans, the latest in marine research, and the scientists working hard to better understand and protect our blue planet.
Clark Marchese (00:50.656)
All right, let us get started. If you are listening to this on April 29th, then this is the first episode of Oceanography you have ever listened to. But Oceanography is only the latest show under the podcast network Pine Forest Media that creates shows investigating the intersection of various environmental issues, science, and society. So you may have heard my voice before. My name is Clark Marchese and I am going to be your host. And in this podcast, Oceanography, we are going to be tackling the universe that exists underwater.
In the episodes that follow, we'll hear from scientists all over the world about everything you can think of under the sea. Now, this is first and foremost a science podcast, so we will get super curious as we learn about and discover the recent research on chemosynthesizing bacteria near deep sea methane seeps and sulfur emitting volcanoes, or the bioacoustics of marine life, bioacoustics being the sounds that they make and hear. Did you know that scientists have discovered what they call a sunset chorus where large schools of fish vocalize in unison at sundown for reasons still unknown, but that's for next week. Today we were talking about whales. Now, another thing we like to focus on at Pine Forest Media is how science can be solutions focused and used to solve problems, inform policy, and make the world a healthier, safer, more equitable, and sustainable place.
Today we are going to be speaking to a researcher from the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration and learning all about the different inventions that researchers are coming up with that can stop endangered whales from getting trapped in fishing gear. There are a lot of threats facing our oceans and we will learn about a lot of them on the show, but this podcast is a space for action and optimism, where we learn about what is happening and what we can do about it. We're also going to be learning about and getting to know the people who do this work, because a lot of these scientists are super cool people and I feel so lucky to get the chance to speak to so many of them. Before we get into the research of the day - If anything I've said so far sounds interesting to you, I invite and encourage you to subscribe to the show so you will get new episodes in your feed each week, to send this episode to someone you know, or to give us a one tap five star review wherever you're listening to this now. All of those things are some of the easiest things that you can do to help us spread science to more people. And if you're really into science or even just a little bit curious, I can also invite you to check out our other shows. We've got one on plastics pollution.
Clark Marchese (03:10.646)
one on drinking water, one on Antarctica, and a couple new ones coming out soon. So I can point you to the direction of our episode description for more information about the other shows that we produce in this network. And lastly, before we get started, if you really feel called to support science communication, I will mention that we now have a Patreon account and for as little as $3 a month, you can help us keep making the show and others like it. And a portion of the Patreon proceeds will be donated to science communication and research efforts.
And if you are one of our subscribers there on Patreon, you will also be able to vote periodically on which projects you'd like us to support. Okay, that is my intro before the intro. Now here's the intro to this episode. In just a moment, we are going to be joined by Megan Amico. Our guest today is someone whose work sits at the critical intersection of marine science and conservation. Megan is a fisheries biologist and gear researcher with the NOAA or NOAA's Risk Assessment and Mitigation Branch where she collaborates with commercial fishermen to develop innovative solutions that reduce bycatch and protect endangered species, including the North Atlantic right whale. She is at the forefront of the protected species gear research initiative, evaluating on-demand fishing gear and other technologies that can help both marine life and coastal communities thrive. How lucky are we and how lucky are these whales that make and exist? And we get to say hello in about 10 seconds, right after this lovely theme music we had made for you to enjoy.
Clark Marchese (04:52.288)
All right, we are recording. Hello, Megan, welcome.
Megan Amico
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.
Clark Marchese
Now you work at the NOAA Northeast Fisheries Science Center, which is a branch of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Before we jump into it, can you tell us a little bit about the NOAA or NOAA?
Megan Amico
Yeah, so NOAA is the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration. And it's a federal agency, but NOAA's mission to better understand our natural world and help protect its precious resources extends beyond natural borders to monitor global weather and climate and works with partners all around the world. So I work at the Northeast Fisheries Science Center in Woodtoll, Massachusetts, and we study fisheries species, fisheries, we monitor and model ocean ecosystems and provide reliable advice for policymakers.
Clark Marchese (05:43.502)
I saw somewhere on my Instagram feed a while ago that someone compared it to NASA and they said it was sort of like NASA for the Earth instead of space. Would you say that's a useful comparison?
Megan Amico
Yeah, yeah, I haven't actually heard that. That's pretty good. Yeah, because, you know, there's the weather service through NOAA and then pretty much everything else is ocean. So yeah, that's a really good comparison.
Clark Marchese
Okay, cool. Well then, tell us a little bit about what you are doing there.
Megan Amico
Yeah, so our work promotes recovery and long-term sustainability of marine life in the region. And we call my team the GEAR Research Team, and we are under the protected species division and risk assessment and mitigation branch. And we essentially work closely with commercial fishing industry to reduce harmful interactions with marine mammals, turtles, and other protected species.
Clark Marchese
Alright, this sounds like a little bit of a vocab word that people may have heard before, which is bycatch. Is that sort of what you're working on limiting?
Megan Amico (06:39.18)
Yeah, exactly. So we are looking to reduce the bycatch of protected species, but bycatch can be literally any species that the fisherman isn't intending on catching. an example I use is if you're going to catch cod and you just, you know, unintentionally you're catching haddock, that's not what you're looking for. So that haddock would technically be that bycatch. But we're more interested right now with protected species, like those marine mammals, turtles, seabirds, things like
Clark Marchese
For anyone who is interested, I found a really cool resource on the NOAA webpage that lists all of the endangered or threatened species. I'm going link it into the show notes, but you can categorize them by subgroup. For example, there are 14 different species of whales alone on that list, and the list also links you to the most up-to-date status of their particular species' recovery plan, which is also really cool. Now, Megan, I also read that your research unit works really closely with the fishing industry to try and limit harm to endangered species. Can you tell us a little bit about what that interplay looks like?
Megan Amico
Absolutely. Yeah. None of our work or research would be possible without the collaboration of commercial fishermen. So we study protected species gear research interactions with fisheries and we can do that all we want. But at the end of the day, it's the fishermen out there who are using the gear every day and seeing what's actually happening. So their input is much more valuable than ours really could be since, you know, they see all this stuff every day. But we have fishermen testing modified gear and alternative gear types, and they send us their honest feedback along with know, filled in data sheets and we relay this feedback to gear manufacturers or developers who can make these suggested modifications that improve the gear, making it a better experience for those who are going to be using it in real fishing scenarios.
Clark Marchese (08:17.528)
Can you speak to the size and the scope of this project?
Megan Amico
Yeah, so for us at the Northeast Fisheries Science Center, we're really focused on the Northeast. So, you know, that's more the New England area down to, you know, New Jersey and Maryland even, but there are other researchers doing similar projects and similar research programs all over the country and all over the world. So it's not just something that we're doing up here. It's an area of study that a lot of people are looking at.
Clark Marchese
Okay, and I imagine no matter where this type of research takes place, if you find a sort of solution that say this new gear is super effective, it should be able to be applied rather universally,
Megan Amico
We're pretty lucky we have a really broad, I guess, collaboration with a bunch of different partners around the world. And, you know, there definitely isn't a one size fits all solution to different fisheries and even within the same fishery in different regions. But having that kind of global network or even national network is really helpful to share what we're learning and grow in whatever ways we can to help the fishing industry and protected species.
Clark Marchese
I also wanted to ask you if there are any specific species on the endangered list that you are looking at at the moment or that your team is focusing on?
Megan Amico (09:27.372)
Yeah. So was going to say anything in the ocean, I guess, technically is at risk for entanglement. And, know, I actually started my career in fisheries as a fisheries observer, ran a college and you deploy out in commercial fishing vessels. And I saw and collected data on all the species that were caught during the trip. So that could be even seals, dolphins, porpoises, seabirds, sharks, and other fish, unintentionally. But the gear research team is primarily looking right now at the North Atlantic right whale in their entanglements in vertical line in fixed gear fisheries.
Clark Marchese
Do we have any figures or sort of an understanding of how vulnerable these right whales are?
Megan Amico
Yeah, so this species has actually been enduring an unusual mortality event or UME since 2017. And that includes sublethally injured or ill, seriously injured and dead right whales. And the whales impacted by the unusual mortality event represent more than 20 % of the population, which is pretty significant on the endangered species where deaths are actually outpacing births. So right now, I think the estimate is around 370 North Atlantic right whales left with less than 70 actually being breeding females. So the situation is pretty dire.
Clark Marchese (10:38.274)
What sorts of strategies can be used to reduce the entanglement of these right whales?
Megan Amico
So, I mean, thankfully there are a bunch of options that exist to reduce the entanglement of different species as a whole. For right whales, one strategy that NOAA has done is implementing closed areas. So NOAA Fisheries implemented the Atlantic Large Whale Take Reduction Plan to reduce the injuries and deaths of large whales due to incidental entanglement in fishing gear. And essentially the plan created four areas that prohibit fishing using any vertical lines during periods of time where the abundance of right whales was high off the coast of Massachusetts and Maine.
Clark Marchese
Okay, so it's basically a temporary marine protected area that is established during periods of high traffic of whales. Whale rush hour, as it were.
Megan Amico
But these closures are detrimental or can be detrimental to coastal communities that rely heavily on lobster and other species for their economies since the fishermen are either displaced or forced to wait out until the closure is open and they're able to fish again. So that's where the idea for more modified gear comes in, like on-demand gear, but that gear essentially allows fishermen to fish within these closed areas since there's no static vertical line putting these whales at risk.
Clark Marchese (11:50.2)
Okay, so if we're putting our innovation hats on, what sorts of new equipment are we coming up with that can reduce this risk to whales?
Megan Amico
Yeah, for sure. So I just want to back up in case people aren't super familiar with lobster fishing in general, especially in New England. It's obviously kind of the way of life for a lot of coastal communities here. But if you can imagine buoys on the surface of the water, these whales are known to get caught in the line that connects the buoys on the surface to the pot and trap or the gill net at the bottom of the ocean. So fishing gear, especially this vertical line rope is what we call it in the water column, can wrap around the whale, cut into its body and cause serious injuries and death.
And even the gear that can be removed through disentanglement efforts or eventually falls off can severely stress the whale, it and prevent it from feeding and drain the energy it needs to swim, feed and reproduce. So even when they are successfully disentangled, this is still a serious issue that's happening with the species. But in terms of gear, on-demand gear to reduce this risk. So we call it on-demand or ropeless systems, and they use far less rope in the water than traditional gear designs. So to locate and haul or retrieve gear, traditional methods like we were just talking about tether gear to a rope attached to a buoy at the water surface, and the fishermen can just drive their boat up to this buoy and are able to retrieve their traps. So the main characteristic of on-demand gear is that it does not need this gear to buoy tether. Instead, when fishermen are ready to haul their traps, they can send the signal acoustically to the device on the sea floor using a deck box, transducer, and an app or controller. So when the device receives a signal, it triggers its release mechanism and rises to the surface, allowing the fisherman to holler trap.
Clark Marchese (13:30.094)
Okay, let me see if I got this right. So in this system, there are lobster cages and traps at the bottom of the ocean, and they remain the same. There's no sort of change in the design of the cages. But instead of having a rope that connects them to the surface of the ocean, a rope that whales can get caught in, instead, there is a device attached to the traps that fishermen can send a remote signal to. And then when that signal is received, the device launches to the surface. But then my question would be - how exactly do they get it to sort of rise back to the surface of the ocean?
Megan Amico
Yeah. So there are several different types of on-demand gear. There are stowed rope or pop-up buoy systems that release buoys and align to the surface when it's triggered. So some of them have like a door that'll open and essentially let those buoys and that rope go up to the surface. There are inflatable lift bag systems or inflatable buoy systems that have an air tank that will fill a bag or buoy with air once the acoustic signal is retrieved. It'll bring itself up to the surface. And there's also buoyant spools of rope that unravel to the surface when it's triggered. So there's a bunch of different types of on-demand systems.
Clark Marchese
Okay, that's so ingenious and I'm looking at a picture of it now on a podcast. I know it's hard to sort of visualize, but we have social media links and a website that you can find in the episode description and I will put some photographs there. But this is amazing and so inventive and it's just one example, right? Because the long line is a big issue for whales. But I know that your research team is looking at equipment that solves a lot of different problems that face a lot of different species. I saw something on your team's webpage about a piece of equipment called a turtle excluder. Can you tell us what that one is for?
Megan Amico (15:08.77)
Yeah, yeah. So on demand is for those vertical lines and that's primarily for the North Atlantic right whales. But there's definitely going to be benefits for other species, especially like the leatherback turtle. We've seen those guys get entangled in vertical lines as well. But for other fishing gear, we have different types of turtle deflectors essentially or turtle excluders. So for example, the turtle excluder device is when you are towing on the bottom of the ocean. So we have a boat that's essentially dragging a net on the bottom of the ocean. And it's really good at catching anything that comes in contact with. And many sea turtle species rest and forage on the bottom of the ocean and they're at risk of being captured on the bottom in these trawls. So capturing the bottom could result in drowning and significant damage to these species. So a turtle excluder device or a TED is a grid of bars with an opening at the top or the bottom of the trawl net. And the grid is fitted into the neck of usually a shrimp trawl. that's animals such as shrimp can pass through the bars and they're caught in the end bag at the end of the trawl. But when larger animals such as sea turtles or even sharks are captured in the trawl, they strike against these grid bars and are actually like pushed up and out through like the, opening in the net. So yeah, it's really good at pushing out those protected species. And we're currently focused on a new design for squid trawls using a sorting grid made from cables sewn into the net. So that is something that we're looking at right now. And there's something very similar for scalloped dredges as well. It's pretty much the same thing, except the sea turtle actually doesn't go into the dredge. It kind of just gets bumped up and over and that's called a turtle deflector dredge.
Clark Marchese
This so encouraging. Do we have any data or is there enough data yet to show the extent to which these new technologies have been reducing the incidences of entanglement?
Megan Amico (16:56.334)
Yeah. So especially, um, the turtle deflector dredges and the turtle extruder devices, they've been around for a while. And in the Northwest Atlantic, the estimated visible contacts between loggerhead turtles and the dredge gear have decreased from, I think it's 218 loggerhead turtles per year in the early 2000s to just one animal in 2014. So that's a significant decrease. And then our work on the turtle deflector dredges was able to reduce sea turtle mortality by 36%. So that's a pretty big drop. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head for the turtle excluder device. And then on demand gear, we're still pretty much in its infancy. It's only been a couple of years of research, but you know, we're hopeful that as we continue to develop this technology, that it'll have a significant reduction in risk for the species.
Clark Marchese
That is such great news, which we don't often hear when it comes to the environment these days or the ocean. So very encouraged today. And I would imagine that lots of different fisheries and organizations might want to get their hands on, on this equipment. So can you tell me a little bit about what the gear lending library is and how it works?
Megan Amico
Yeah. So the gear library is a collection of really right now on demand or hopeless systems. And it's built with help and contributions from environmental and academic organizations that we lend to fishermen for testing. So it maximizes the impact of these contributions made by non-government organizations and the federal government. And it increases the availability of systems for fishermen who want to use them without having to buy them. so any interested fishermen, we provide training in gear. And then in turn, provide us with data on incorporating the system into their fishing practices. And right now these fishermen are actually being compensated for their data.
Clark Marchese (18:41.528)
Wow, I'm really obsessed with this collaboration. Would you say that the fisheries taking part in these programs are more large scale and industrial or smaller and independent?
Megan Amico
Pretty variable, especially when talking about the lobster industry here. We have a lot of smaller like day boats or inshore vessels that sometimes it's literally just the captain by himself going out to haul traps. Wow. Yeah. And you know, those boats can be pretty small. And then we do have some fishermen that have offshore vessels. So they'll go out with the crew and sometimes spend maybe even a couple of weeks out on the on the water. And I knew we do have, I think, a fleet. So we do have a few vessels that are a little bit larger and have, you know, more of that fleet backing essentially. But yeah, for the most part, it's individual fishermen and maybe like one or two crew members with them at a time.
Clark Marchese
I also know that a large part of your work involves not only running and maintaining this program, but also research, looking into new designs, testing their effectiveness, seeing what works and what doesn't. And this is also a research based podcast, so I'm curious, what unanswered questions do we still have about this gear or what sorts of research questions are you currently working on with your team?
Megan Amico
Yeah, so right now we're working on a visibility issue. Since there's no surface marker buoy alerting other fishermen or other ocean users that there's gear on the bottom of the ocean, it's hard for others to know that there's actually gear there. So one of our priorities lately has been working with various partners to have an interoperable display that would allow different ocean users within a certain radius of the gear to be able to visualize it on a chart plotter.
Megan Amico (20:16.416)
or across multiple on-demand manufacturers apps. So there's, you know, different gear from different manufacturers and they all kind of have their own platform or their own app. So if, you know, I'm fishing with one type and my neighbor's fishing with a different type, we might not be able to see each other's gear despite both using on-demand gear. So we're working on being able to get all of that into one place and also getting the mobile fleets involved. So mobile fishermen who are towing those bottom trawls that we kind of touched on earlier so they can see it and not have any year conflict issues with the lobster industry.
Clark Marchese
Problem solving aspect of your work is very encouraging. I've said that word maybe too many times, but the oceans are so vast as are its threats. And it could be easy to get overwhelmed at the problems, but optimism has to be met with action and action prompts optimism, right? There's a feedback loop there and the results that you've just told us are measurable and significant. So this is a happy episode. I can't promise they will all be like this, but I want to say thank you for the work that you were doing.
Megan Amico
Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that.
Clark Marchese
Riding this wave, sorry, ocean pun. I'm wondering if you have any other recent success stories that you can share with us.
Megan Amico (21:25.976)
I have some stats if you're interested in showing just how much our program has grown for on-demand research. Sweet, yeah. So just to preface, we categorize a successful haul as when on-demand gear is hauled as intended. And then an unsuccessful haul is all situations where the on-demand device did not surface as expected. And this can be due to things like user error, incorrect rigging of the gear, snarls in the line, dead batteries and things like that.
Clark Marchese
Yes, please.
Megan Amico (21:54.606)
So in 2020, we had three vessels complete 79 hauls of on-demand gear at a success rate of 63%. In 2021, we had 10 vessels complete 623 hauls at 85 % success. In 2022, we had 22 vessels complete 1,851 hauls at 89 % success. In 2023, we had 33 vessels complete 2,714 hauls at 86 % success. And we're still finalizing our 2024 stats, but as of December 9th, we had 36 vessels complete 5,796 halls for over 90%. And then if we're looking at the total program, we had 45 different vessels complete over 11,000 halls of on-demand gear for a success rate of 88%. So since 2020, it's grown a lot. We've learned a lot and our success rate is pretty good for, you know, a kind of a young program.
Clark Marchese
Okay. So the trend line is clear. So that's great. As we sort of round out to the last couple of questions, I want to ask you as the expert, if there's anything that we didn't touch on today that you think would be important for listeners to know about the work that you're doing about ocean research in general, anything that you think we shouldn't forget to talk about.
Megan Amico (23:12.814)
Yeah. So I guess the first thing I can think of, and we did touch on it, but I just want to reiterate that this work is only possible due to the hard work and cooperation of the fishermen that we work with. Their patience, dedication, and experience is truly nothing short of incredible. And they work really hard to adapt to the evolving management actions that are constantly being thrown at them. And also the non-government organizations that contribute gear and funds to our team has been instrumental in the success of this program. We work really close with different state agencies and other organizations. So all of our work is essentially a labor of love from several parties. So it's a really great collaboration and we're really lucky to work with such a great team.
Clark Marchese
What a wonderful note to end on. Yeah. Well, the last question I have for you is where can people find you and follow your work?
Megan Amico (23:58.626)
Yeah, so you can find us on any social media platform as at NOAA Fisheries. And also if you search NOAA protected species gear research, our page should come up and we have a bunch of different links on there if you're interested. Also, if you or someone you know is interested in testing on demand gear, please feel free to reach out to the gear team. And we are at nec.gearlibraryatnoaa.gov. So feel free to shoot us an email.
Clark Marchese
Okay, perfect. I'll make sure that those links are in the episode description so that people can find them easily. And this is the part where I say thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much for teaching us about everything that we learned. And one final time, thank you for your very important work in this space.
Megan Amico
Thank you so much. been a lot of fun doing this. So thank you to and giving everybody a voice to talk about the research.
Clark Marchese (24:55.916)
Alright everybody, let's give a thank you one last time to our very first guest on Oceanography, Megan Amico, and I hope you all enjoy the start of this series. I also hope this episode was able to impress on how important research programs are like this, more than ever. The New York Times reported last month that the NOAA may be reducing its staff by up to 20 % or more, which will greatly reduce the ability of the organization to maintain programs like the one we just talked about today.
Now, if you want to support us in helping spread research like this, we now have a Patreon, as I mentioned. You can find a link in the episode description. For as little as $3 a month, you can help us make this show, grow support for research through accessible science communication, and also we'll be making a donation from a portion of these proceeds to science communication and environmental research programs. Oceanography is also just one of the podcasts in the Pine Forest Media Network. We have one on plastics pollution called Plastic Podcast.
One about the importance of Antarctica called South Pole and one about drinking water sustainability around the world called Something in the Water. You can find more information about those on our website at pineforestpods.com, which is also linked in the show notes. And I hope you will check out those other shows and stay with this one. We've got a lot of interesting episodes lined up for oceanography. I just spoke to a man about bioluminescent sharks, so that is on the horizon and beyond the sort of interesting unexpected or random science topics that we'll be talking about. We'll also learn why we rely on the oceans to keep functioning the way that they do and how we can make sure that they can. So subscribe, send it to a friend, rate and review, get in touch. We'd love to hear from you. And that's all I have for you today and we'll see you next week.
Clark Marchese (26:41.41)
You have been listening to Oceanography, a Pine Forest Media production. You can find more information about the podcast and this week's guest in the episode description. Cover art for the show was done by Joe Miro-Emming and the music you're listening to was done by Nia de Ruiz. The show is hosted and edited by me, Claire Marchese, and you can find more information about Pine Forest Media and our science podcast at pineforestpods.com or follow us on social media at pineforestmedia. And if you stick around to the end of the credits, we'll be giving you a fun fact about the ocean.
And I think this one's pretty fun. Everyone knows that there is salt in the ocean, but there is enough salt in the ocean to cover the whole surface of the earth and not just with a thin layer. If you covered the surface of the earth with all the salt on the ocean, it would be about 500 feet thick, which is about the height of a 40 story building or for example, the Flatland building in New York City. And now you know. All right. That's all I have today. Talk to you soon.
